When
it was announced that the Blanket had conducted
an interview with PSNI boss Hugh Orde, many people
from a range of backgrounds were interested to know
had I not found it a strange piece of business to
pursue. Since I travelled to Knock PSNI headquarters
a fortnight ago along with Blanket editor, Carrie
Twomey, the most frequent question to come my way
has been 'what was he like?' They knew already what
Hugh Orde had to say, as a transcript of the full
interview appeared online.
The
Knock interview was the fourth and not the first
occasion on which I had met and spoken with the
leader of the British state’s police force
in the North. It was also the most sustained and
intense exchange. The previous encounters were fleeting
affairs; once at a conference, another in the rest
room of a down town restaurant, and on the third
occasion at a commemorative appreciation for the
late Jack Holland. It was at the latter that the
Blanket editor approached him and asked for an interview.
That’s how it works – the eye for opportunity
bags the prize.
I
knew he hadn’t horns and, consequently, felt
little anticipation as we crossed the city. Previous
journeys to police stations were much more contentious
affairs. On one occasion, my return ticket could
not be used before 17 years had expired. This time
it was different, mainly for two reasons: I knew
I would be out within the hour; and I could do something
other than either lie my way through the session
or remain silent. Our demeanour was relaxed. Our
driver, up until a few months ago a Sinn Fein member,
bantered us about history in the making. He brought
a camera so that he could snap us on the way out.
The
groundwork had been done. We had earlier taken soundings
from a variety of people, those who never have the
chance to address people in positions of authority.
We sought out the most marginalised. Their concerns
were reflected in the questions asked. In as far
as was possible we strived to make our questions
reflect a constituency much wider than our own intellectual
curiosity. In a sense we were democratic to a fault
- some of those who engaged with the PSNI chief
through the medium of the Blanket have themselves
scant regard for democratic sentiment. Nevertheless,
they represent the gaps, the hidden voices, the
silences that never fail to tell us something which
the powerful want smoothed over and pressed out
of the narrative. While conscious of those who would
see in us a means to prise open the clamp that the
state imposes on the free flow of information, there
was no intention on our part to play to the gallery
and behave in a hostile manner to Hugh Orde. But
we were determined not to give him the type of interview
that in the business is called a robin. Our questions
would be probing, direct and engaging.
The
interview was straightforward. We had our questions
typed out in front of us, copies of which we handed
to Hugh Orde and his press secretary on arrival
in his office. It would speed up the process by
rendering unnecessary any need on our part to repeat
sometimes lengthy questions. The PSNI press office
had not asked for a copy of them in advance although
it had suggested that a general indication of the
areas we intended to cover would permit more rounded
answers. Reasonable enough. When we arrived, there
were only a few minutes waiting around until we
were ushered into the office of the chief constable.
Coffee was served and the interview was under way.
Over
the years I have had call to deal with many of Hugh
Orde's subordinates and have been in quite a few
rooms with them, usually very Spartan places - three
chairs and a table. Myself on one side and two interrogators
on the other. Only weeks ago I accompanied a local
kid to the station as a 'competent adult'. He was
asked to attend to be questioned about some minor
fracas. The 'interview suite' may have a nice ring
to it but it looked much the same as they always
did. They are not exactly constructed with a welcome
in mind. Now and then, during my own interrogations,
my chair went unused as I was forced to stand. On
the very infrequent occasions when they would try
to spread-eagle me against the wall I merely sat
on the floor ignoring them. The cops, unlike the
military, usually provided me with a chair.
This
time it was different. For once a friend accompanied
me in a police station, and the cop I was facing
had a smile rather than a scowl. His companion was
not some burly rugby type brought in specifically
for the hard cop soft-cop routine. It was a press
aide. The seating was brown leather which I sank
into upon sitting down. Most striking of all in
terms of contrast, however, was that on this occasion
I asked the questions. It was the most I had ever
talked in a police station and later it brought
a wry smile to my face when I read in the Village
magazine, that an ‘ex-IRA prisoner interrogates
Hugh Orde.'
Some
people are of the view that it is a sign of how
things have changed that someone from my stable
was actually able to gain access to the chief constable.
To an extent there is truth in this but the nature
of that change is instructive. Few now believe that
Hugh Orde heads a police force which sees its primary
objective as the repression of nationalists. But
the force is what the RUC always was - despite republican
assertions that the RUC was primarily the armed
wing of unionism - the police force of the British
state and no other. I knew I was going in to meet
a new police chief but not, crucially, the chief
of a new police force. When the Patten report was
published Danny Morrison writing in the Sunday Tribune
commented that it did not constitute the long sought
republican objective of RUC disbandment. Maurice
Hayes later waxed ironical on the notion of republicans
elevating Patten into some form of Holy Grail when
in fact it was proof of the failure of republicanism
to secure anything remotely like the disbandment
of the RUC. The real change, which formed the backdrop
to my Knock exchange with the police leader, was
that on all my earlier involuntary visits to police
stations I was a member of an army that was fighting
a war. I was there because those holding me sought
to inflict a defeat on the army of which I was a
part. This time my visit was voluntary. I was going
in as a former member of a defeated army to meet
the head of a victorious British police force who
would answer what concerns I might have about British
policing. The very fact of its Britishness requires
little else to be said.
Hugh
Orde was sharp, relaxed, genial, witty, robust.
He was not afraid to engage. In fact by agreeing
to the interview he was making it clear that he
was prepared to face questions from an element generally
regarded to be more hostile to the force he commands
than most other sections of society. If he could
field the questions from that quarter, then he would
close down the space for those who continue to argue
against the new policing arrangements. Intuitively,
we were aware of this but felt it would be cowardly
not to press him for fear that his answers would
trump our questions. Should we only play games we
know we are going to win?
Did
we win? I don't think so. On the day, Hugh Orde
acquitted himself very well. While there was nothing
to suggest personal dishonesty on his part many of his answers
were political. But then he is a political cop –
as the head of any British police force in Ireland
must always be. We left Knock feeling we asked the
questions that were relevant. If the answers were
not what we would have wanted, the importance of
raising the questions as a matter of public record
should not be understated. Our task was to demonstrate
that there are still serious questions to be asked
of the police.
The
morning after the interview was published in full
a friend sent an e mail praising the Blanket for
having the courage to take it on, but suggesting
we stand by for flak from the Left, Sinn Fein and
traditionalist republicans. We were unconcerned.
As they say, those who matter won’t mind and
those who mind won’t matter. In the event we
met no hostility. Most people seemed interested
in the dialogue that had taken place. One said he
had never seen a senior cop asked such a wide range
of questions. Other Blanket readers were interested
in the questions posed about racism, investigative
journalism and street traders. An American friend
felt Orde was a good cop but the British state’s
cop nonetheless. Many, whom I anticipated being
more blinkered and antagonistic, surprised me firstly
by saying that the Blanket was right to do the interview
but secondly by conceding that Hugh Orde put in
a solid performance. One word featured in all the
commentary on the PSNI boss – ‘astute’.
As
a result, speaking after the interview, strangely
enough to a former prisoner who is still wedded
to the perspective of physical force republicanism,
I expressed the reservation that because Hugh Orde
had responded so firmly to our probing that in a
sense we, as republicans opposed to the police,
may have helped his case look more plausible. His
response - 'you are only responsible for your questions,
not his answers.'
We
can live with that.
